Request for Information Regarding Prison Space Rental (no. 645)
Session: 15th Riigikogu, 4th session, plenary sitting
Date: 2024-10-21 18:29
Participating Politicians:
Total Speeches: 66
Membership: 15
Agenda Duration: 1h 24m
AI Summaries: 66/66 Speeches (100.0%)
Analysis: Structured Analysis
Politicians Speaking Time
Politicians
Analysis
Summary
The agenda includes an inquiry regarding the leasing of prison spaces and addresses the possibility of renting Estonian prisons to foreign countries, particularly in connection with the interest of the United Kingdom and broader subject investigations. The inquiry was derived from media coverage at the end of August, which discussed plans for foreign countries to use prison spaces. The Riigikogu’s questions focused primarily on whether the negotiations involve other countries besides the United Kingdom, what conditions would exist within Estonia for the reception of prisoners, and what post-sentence return schemes would be in place. Concerns were also raised about the treatment of prisoners with dignity, the terms of the contracts, and humanitarian and security risks.
In connection with Minister Liisa-Ly Pakost's cooperation with speakers, a broad discussion took place regarding the objectives of the preliminary consultations and the red lines to be followed when concluding contracts. The minister's responses clarified that negotiations have not yet been initiated with any country, and that on September 26th, permission was given at the cabinet meeting to hold preliminary consultations with various countries; this does not signify the realization of the project, but rather the continuation of a research and assessment process. The need to ensure safety, human rights, and lawful restrictions was also highlighted, along with potential economic viability and the development of local communities. The entire discussion demonstrates an interest in understanding the risks and added value, but efforts are currently moving in the direction of preparation and analysis, not towards a final decision.
Decisions Made 1
The government, including the Ministry of Justice, has been given the go-ahead to hold preliminary consultations with various countries (with a focus on the Netherlands and Sweden) with the aim of clarifying the details of a rental possibility, its viability, and its impact on Estonia's economy and security. This decision is aimed at gathering initial information and does not constitute a commitment to implement the project. The minister also emphasized that if a possible agreement is reached, it must include red lines: it must not release detentions, must ensure humane treatment, and must comply with the Estonian Constitution and international requirements. Furthermore, it was stressed that when drafting the parties to the agreement, account will be taken of the grounds for penalty agreements and also the differences in foreign countries' legal norms will be encapsulated.
Most Active Speaker
The most active speaker: Martin Helme (pod C8iMWR25mcA) — Member of the Riigikogu, right-wing (EKRE). His participation in questioning is noticeable, and this speech marked a strong criticism of the government and previous plans, emphasizing the protection of sovereignty and the interests of the people.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
During today's first agenda item, the interpellation submitted by Riigikogu members Rain Epler, Siim Pohlak, Rene Kokk, Evelin Poolamets, Arvo Aller, Kert Kingo, Varro Vooglaid, Anti Poolamets, Mart Helme, Helle-Moonika Helme, and Martin Helme regarding the renting out of prison places will be discussed. Rain Epler will act as the rapporteur.
Rain Epler
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Rain Epler and his colleagues submitted an interpellation to the Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs on September 11th concerning the plan to begin renting out Estonian prisons to foreign countries (such as the United Kingdom). They inquired about the conditions and legal bases that would apply to such an activity, and whether imprisonment in Estonia would be permitted on the grounds of political criticism or government policy.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Speaker invited the Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs, Liisa-Ly Pakosta, to the Riigikogu rostrum to answer the interpellation.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
The report confirms that no country has been involved in the negotiations, and preliminary consultations have been held to explore the possibility of transferring detainees from foreign countries to Estonia. Should an agreement ever be concluded, it must guarantee humane treatment and stipulate that the detainee will not be released in Estonia but will instead return to the sending state. Furthermore, the current stance on prisoners who arrived illegally in the United Kingdom remains open. Additionally, there is a recognized future need to avoid increasing Estonia's burden regarding long-term punitive measures and to ensure that any potential agreements are balanced. Estonia must also anticipate potential growth in crime, with major trends including cybercrime, organized crime, violence, the expansion of extremist groups, new fraud schemes and cyberattacks, and environmental crimes, all of which may necessitate additional prison capacity.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chairman thanks the Minister, notes that there are questions, and calls upon Martin Helme to speak.
Martin Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Martin Helme asserts that these are not negotiations but consultations, and he is calling for clarification regarding which countries these consultations are being held with, how far they have progressed, and what their objective is—whether the goal is to bring prisoners here and receive money for them, or if they are simply testing the waters.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta said that pre-consultations based on the experiences of the Netherlands and Sweden are being reviewed, and efforts are being made to determine whether such a project would be secure and economically viable, and would meet all requirements.
Tõnis Lukas
Profiling Isamaa fraktsioonAI Summary
He/She is debating whether we are discussing the leasing out of Tartu Prison, and whether that action might bring inmates from third countries here, cause unease, and necessitate risk assessments and additional prison capacity to ensure internal security and peace.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar invited Tõnis Lukas to speak.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Estonia currently operates three modern prisons, including Tartu Prison, which ensures high security, an effective correctional system, digital resources, and visitation rights subject to stringent background checks. Although the government is considering renting out prison capacity, an initiative that could create around 400 jobs, this must not compromise security standards in any way. Furthermore, Estonia continues its international cooperation, leveraging NATO experience and considering the situation in Ukraine, to ensure that national security and, if necessary, the management of prisoners of war are thoroughly prepared.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar called upon Helle-Moonika Helme to speak.
Helle-Moonika Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Helle-Moonika Helme asks whether Estonia, as the receiving state, could receive 30 million, and whether the entire cost for the prisoners—general and specialized medical care, dental care, psychological assistance, and religious services—would be covered by the state or the purchaser of the service.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
We will proceed with this project only if the preliminary consultations indicate that it is feasible to execute it for a fee, and provided that it does not increase the burden on the Estonian taxpayer.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar invites Rain Epler to deliver a speech.
Rain Epler
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Rain Epler criticizes the minister for using the word "negotiations," noting that the preliminary consultations failed to yield substantive answers. He then brings up the example of the Netherlands, where the number of prisoners has decreased by about 40% over 20 years and prisons are being closed, asking what the plans related to the Netherlands are concerning the renting of prison spaces from Estonia.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
I am not familiar with the domestic statistics of the Netherlands and cannot comment on them, but it is true that delegations have visited each other's prisons, and there is interest in holding preliminary consultations.
Varro Vooglaid
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Varro Vooglaid refers to data from the UK prosecution service, noting that in 2023, 12,737 hate speech cases were processed, 87% of which led to formal charges and 85% resulted in convictions. He then asks whether similar individuals—who are essentially prisoners of conscience—might be transferred to Estonia under the framework of cooperation, considering the UK's interest in utilizing Estonian prisons, and specifically whether Estonia would accept those convicted under hate speech legislation.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar invited Varro Vooglaid to speak.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta stated that it is only economically sensible to consider implementing the measure for offenders serving long sentences, as short prison terms or fines render the entire process costly and highly improbable.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar calls Arvo Aller to speak.
Arvo Aller
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Arvo Aller noted that the negotiations between the Netherlands and Sweden regarding immigrants and crime are connected, and he questioned how increasing export capacity fits into this situation when half of our prison capacity is unused and we are importing inmates.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
In her presentation, Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta explained that European crime statistics are publicly available on the Eurostat and Europol websites. She then provided a simple import-export example: if one Estonian person cuts the hair of another Estonian person, the money circulates within Estonia and no export takes place; however, if an Estonian person cuts the hair of a person who has arrived from a foreign country and pays with foreign currency, this constitutes an export.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Speaker Lauri Hussar invites Kert Kingo to take the floor.
Kert Kingo
AI Summary
Kert Kingo criticizes the prison planned for Tartu, claiming that it will ruin Tartu's aura and bring a larger contingent of criminals, their close associates, and allegedly Muslim families into the city.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
He noted that during the approximately 20 years Tartu Prison has been operational, it has not negatively impacted the atmosphere of Tartu, and the situation can be monitored statistically or factually.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar announced that Anti Poolamets would now ask a question, and requested that the clock be started for him from zero.
Anti Poolamets
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Anti Poolamets criticized the Minister of Justice for his vague handling of state sovereignty and accused him of promoting "prison tourism," questioning whether his actual goal was to assume the role of the Minister of Economic Affairs and conduct business through this tourism, urging him instead to focus on his primary field rather than establishing a commercial prison industry.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
According to Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta, the solution will be safe, smart, and beneficial for the people of Estonia. Maintaining an empty prison is not sensible, and converting it into a hotel is unlikely, as there is no such practice anywhere in the world.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar invites Mart Helme to take the floor.
Mart Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Mart Helme criticizes the government's consultations for being insufficiently transparent and for failing to provide clear answers. He asks who organizes these consultations, what authority they possess, and where the genesis of their decisions lies, while simultaneously referencing pressure exerted by a British military unit from a foreign state.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta stated that the Estonian prison service is conducting international consultations, has clearly defined red lines, and emphasized that no inmate will be released to Estonia or granted city permits. She added that these must be long-term sentences, visitors will undergo background checks, and video meetings are preferred. Furthermore, negotiations are only possible if security, language issues, and economic benefit are guaranteed, and currently, no preparatory work is underway with the United Kingdom.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chairman invites Rene Kokk to speak.
AI Summary
Rene Kokk posed two specific questions: whether the initiative to bring foreign prisoners to Estonia is an Estonian initiative or originates from abroad, and if it is from abroad, which country it belongs to; and secondly, how the situation will be managed if British prisoners are brought here, and whether their family members could stay in Estonia, visit their loved one, and live here according to British laws.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Speaking about international cooperation, the minister stated that this is a long-term initiative that adds competence to the Estonian prison service, and it is not an initiative of the current government; regarding family members coming to Estonia, the right to visit does not grant the right to a residence permit or amend the Aliens Act.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chairman thanks the previous speaker and invites Tanel Tein to come and speak.
Tanel Tein
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
He asks the minister what the approximate maintenance cost of the 40,000 square meter Tartu prison building would be, and what the alternatives would be if the prison service is discontinued.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Maintaining this empty building costs Riigi Kinnisvara (State Real Estate) AS approximately 8 million euros annually and entails additional expenses. However, an operational prison would create around 400 jobs in Tartu and enhance regional security. At the same time, finding a new purpose for old buildings is complicated, particularly in the case of the Tallinn prison.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar calls upon Evelin Poolamets.
Evelin Poolamets
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Evelin Poolamets pointed out that renting out prison capacity to other countries is often a failed project, citing the examples of the Netherlands and Belgium, and asked how Estonia would manage this, and how the human rights, rehabilitation, and social reintegration of the inmates could be guaranteed if the receiving country has different laws and standards.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
I disagree with the assertion that the current practice has failed—quite the opposite. Based on subsequent feedback, there is satisfaction within the local community and, regarding prisoners, some dissatisfaction with being deported to another country as an additional punishment and the separation from their cultural environment. However, no human rights violations have been identified, and as a digital state, Estonia offers video meetings and other digital opportunities which could resolve the concerns raised thus far.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Riina Solman is called to speak.
Riina Solman
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Riina Solman posed a question before the Riigikogu regarding whether the state should earn money through prison services, and whether the regime and criminal law applicable to prisoners leased from a foreign country are based on Estonian laws or the laws of that respective foreign country, while simultaneously referring to the problems associated with the use of two-person cells and recent violence.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
The central point of the discussion is that the decision to lease the premises has not yet been finalized. Before reaching a definitive solution, preliminary consultations will be held to clarify the feasibility, the terms, and the relevant state legal regulations, while keeping those 'red lines' in mind. Furthermore, no additional taxpayer funds are being requested, with the aim of providing better job opportunities.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chair thanks the Minister, notes that there are no questions, opens the debate, and invites Martin Helme to the podium, whereupon Helme requests additional time—three minutes.
Martin Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Martin Helme criticizes the government, asserting that their long-term plan will end in capitulation and that the power of officials is excessive. He warns against the detrimental effects of mass immigration and the leasing out of prisons, and calls for the government to resign.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar asks the Riigikogu to grant Mart Helme the right to take the floor.
Mart Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Mart Helme claims that government negotiations are naive hot air, that red lines are unrealistic, and that Estonia’s security depends on the conditions set by larger states—the world does not revolve around Toompea, but rather Toompea revolves around the world. He further suggests that by considering empty prisons and repurposing them, approximately 30 million could be generated for the state budget.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar announced that three minutes of extra time were needed.
Mart Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Mart Helme is accusing the government of creating an astronomical savings plan and turning the Estonian government into a puppet regime. He is calling on the ministers to resign, emphasizing that either the state itself might fall or the puppet government will collapse, and wishing for a swift conclusion.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Speaker thanked [them] and invited Anti Poolamets to the Riigikogu rostrum.
Anti Poolamets
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Anti Poolamets warns that the extraordinary prison business plan is backed by a hype-driven, globalized vision that threatens Estonia’s sovereignty and will lead us into European Siberia, which is why the nation’s sovereignty must be protected.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chairman thanked [the previous speaker] and called upon Rene Kok to speak next.
AI Summary
Rene Kokk stated that Estonia must not allow foreign prisoners to be brought into the country. He also criticized the policy of closing schools and kindergartens and stressed the necessity of local engagement in Tartu, cautioning simultaneously that quick and overly enthusiastic decisions could significantly compromise security.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar requested an additional two minutes.
AI Summary
Rene Kokk criticized the plan to close the technology school located in Vana-Vigala, stressing that the building had been renovated for millions and that if the property sale fails, the intention is to simply demolish it (literally, "put a bulldozer on it"). He promised to resist the move, drawing a comparison to a prison, arguing that a good building must be preserved and should not be allowed to go to waste.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chairman thanks the assembly, continues the debate, and invites Helle-Moonika Helme to take the Riigikogu rostrum.
Helle-Moonika Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Helle-Moonika Helme emphasizes that parliamentary inquiries are one of the few ways to demand answers from the government, but plans being prepared behind closed doors remain hidden from the public. She asserts that the state budget deficit must be resolved not by cutting expenses for families and healthcare, but by directing funds towards major projects like Rail Baltic and the green transition, while simultaneously rejecting the idea of renting out the prison as unreasonable.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar asked for three minutes of extra time.
Helle-Moonika Helme
Profiling Eesti Konservatiivse Rahvaerakonna fraktsioonAI Summary
Helle-Moonika Helme accuses the government of overturning the established way of life through the sale of CO2 allowances and of intending to empty prisons, a process during which they plan to import prisoners from abroad. Finally, she calls on them not to lie.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
He/She thanks and requests that the Riigikogu rostrum be yielded to colleague Varro Vooglaid.
Varro Vooglaid
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Varro Vooglaid questions why gigantic prisons have been built in Estonia and whose interests are behind them, hinting at corruption. He draws a comparison to the costs associated with Rail Baltic and the intention to criminalize hate speech, noting that currently, no one in Estonia has been convicted of a hate speech crime. This raises doubts about the necessity of criminalizing it merely to fill empty prison cells.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
He considers whether to award two or three minutes, and decides to add three minutes of stoppage time.
Varro Vooglaid
Profiling Fraktsiooni mittekuuluvad Riigikogu liikmedAI Summary
Vooglaid warned that if Estonia followed the United Kingdom's example by criminalizing hate speech, people could be imprisoned for it, potentially filling the country's prisons. He referenced the UK's approximate 9,000 convictions in 2023 and expressed hope that Estonia would not require empty prisons.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
The Chair thanked the assembly, announced that there were no further requests to speak, and invited Madam Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta back to the Riigikogu rostrum.
Justiits- ja digiminister Liisa-Ly Pakosta
AI Summary
Estonia has reduced the number of inmates from 5,000 to 1,685, makes independent decisions regarding prison matters, and conducts consultations to mitigate threats and prevent crime, remaining prepared to secure prison capacity, if necessary, in the interest of public safety.
Esimees Lauri Hussar
AI Summary
Chairman Lauri Hussar thanks everyone and announces that he is concluding the consideration of the first item on today's agenda.